Interview with Nick Pope
Interview conducted by Gustavo Sánchez Romero
This magnificent interview is part of Crónicas de San Borondón a dynamic team dedicated to the investigation of everything related to Ufology, the strange and the mysterious of our planet https://cronicasdesanborondon.es/
1. Please tell us who is Nick Pope and how long has he been connected to UFO related matters…
I served for 21 years in the UK Ministry of Defence (MoD), and while this career involved many different postings (I took early retirement in 2006, as an acting deputy director in the Directorate of Defence Security), I am best-known for one that I had from 1991 to 1994, when it was my job to research and investigate the UFO phenomenon for the British government, to determine if there was evidence of any threat to the UK, or anything of more general defence or scientific interest. Despite having taken early retirement from the MoD, I am still heavily involved in this subject through my journalism and my television work.
1. Why do you decide to publish your latest book “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest” edited by Thistle Publishing in 2014?
I first had the idea in December 2010 when I was one of the speakers at an event in Woodbridge to commemorate the 30th anniversary of the Rendlesham Forest incident. Two of the other speakers were John Burroughs and Jim Penniston, the main witnesses on the first night of UFO activity. I had met both of them before, separately, but this was the first time the three of us had met together. As well as speaking at the event, I had been commissioned to write an article about the incident and about the 30th anniversary for the UK’s bestselling national daily newspaper, The Sun. John and Jim featured heavily in my article, and after the event the three of us stayed in regular touch. Later, I heard that John and Jim were thinking about teaming up to write a book on the incident. I offered to contribute a chapter about the MoD investigation, but in later discussions, I suggested that because I had a literary agent and contacts at most of the major publishing companies, I should team up with them and the three of us should write the book together. We wrote the book in 2012/2013 and it was first published in 2014 by Macmillan. The Thistle Publishing paperback followed later, and was a bestseller.
3. The UFO incident in Rendlesham Forest, that spanned several days and multiple sightings in December 1980, near the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge, which the RAF leased to the USAF has been referred to as the British Roswell. What do you think about the landing, on 26–10–1980 around 3:00 am, of the strange glass like triangular craft inspected by John Burroughs and James Penniston? Very secret terrestrial X project, unidentified apparatus/UFO or recovery mission for a lunar module?
The irony about the Rendlesham Forest incident — and indeed about the UFO phenomenon as a whole — is that I can tell you what it wasn’t, but I can’t tell you what it was! In other words, the Rendlesham Forest incident remains unexplained to this day. In chapter 9 of our book we run through the various skeptical theories (including the involvement of the dummy Apollo capsule) and explain why they cannot be correct. We also consider the possible involvement of secret prototype aircraft or drones. Then in the next chapter we consider the more exotic theories, including the possibility that what was involved was extraterrestrial. However, while exotic theories such as one involving extraterrestrials cannot be discounted, there’s no definitive ‘smoking gun’ evidence that would prove such an idea to be correct. Skeptics and believers alike are often too quick to claim that they’ve explained the Rendlesham Forest incident, and indeed the UFO mystery as a whole. Those of us who have looked at this from within government are less certain and we’re not afraid to say “I don’t know”.
4. Any further data about the strange hieroglyphic type of markings observed by Penniston at the fuselage? Have they been interpreted in any way?
I am aware that various symbologists have looked at Jim’s sketches and have tried to interpret them. I am also aware that there are some apparent similarities between these symbols and symbols seen in the Utsuro-Bune (which translates as “hollow boat”) case from 1803 in Japan, when a strange woman was reported to have emerged from a hollow craft that was washed up on the seashore. The story sounds like a cross between folklore and a close encounter, with sketches of the vessel having some similarity to a UFO. This is the subject of ongoing research, and Jim Penniston may publish further information about this once research is complete.
5. And what about the data download that Penniston received in a telepathic way, a binary code with a cosmic message perhaps transmitted by human astronauts coming from the future in search of genetic material, or robotic aliens on board the craft? What is this about and why did he wait almost 30 years to make it public?
The second part of the question is easier to answer than the first. Jim stayed quiet about this aspect of his experience firstly because he didn’t think it was particularly significant and secondly because he remained in the United States Air Force (USAF) for many years after the incident, and was concerned that he might lose his enhanced security clearance if he spoke about this. It was acceptable to discuss the UFO, because the Deputy Base Commander (Lieutenant Colonel Charles Halt) had already spoken out publicly about this, but discussion of the binary code might have raised questions about Jim’s state of mind. As to what the binary code means, and where it originated, I don’t know. Jim Penniston has teamed up with esoteric researcher and author Gary Osborn to look into the binary code in more detail, and they may be in a position to publish their findings shortly. If I still worked at the MoD I would doubtless have been able to ask cryptographers at GCHQ to analyse the data, but now that I have retired, this option is not available.
6. On 28–10–1980, around 2:00 am, Colonel´s Halt and other servicemen had a multiple sighting (blinking eye like structure, several lights floating around the forest etc.) where one of the UFO´s, basically a bright object in the sky, started a grid like search shinning some laser type of lights on them and also on top of the weapon storage area, where nuclear bombs were supposed to be in place at Bentwaters… do you think UFO´s are sensitive to nuclear compounds or are attracted by such materials? Are they like modern drones scanning with sensors in order to detect underground facilities and bunker complexes connected to nuclear sites/activity?
Although I have retired from the MoD, the Official Secrets Act binds me for life, and there is little that I can say about nuclear issues. I am certainly aware of a number of incidents from around the world where UFO sightings have occurred very close to nuclear facilities, and I am similarly aware of allegations that nuclear weapons have been affected in various ways by UFO activity. But aside from being aware of these various stories, I am not able to make any comment on them, aside to say that if the stories are true, this would certainly be interesting, important, and something that would be of great concern to governments and the military.
7. Were there any missile or nuclear weapon inspected or removed from Bentwaters weapons storage area after the incident?
It has been the longstanding policy of the British government neither to confirm nor deny the presence of nuclear weapons at any specific location, at any specific time. I am therefore unable to answer this question, or to make any further comment on this matter.
8. There has been a lot of controversy related to the radiation readings detected at various days/sites connected to the Rendlesham Forest UFO incident… where radiation did occur, who took the readings, what amounts were registered and how did it differ from normal, non-radiated areas?
The radiation readings were taken by Monroe Nevels, the Disaster Preparedness Officer. The raw data were recorded in Charles Halt’s report to the MoD, dated 13 January 1981. The MoD’s Defence Intelligence Staff then assessed the levels and checked them against the normal background levels. Their assessment was recorded in a document dated 23 February 1981 and concluded that the radiation levels recorded at the site where the UFO was seen to land on the first night were “significantly higher than the average background” — both these documents have been declassified and we published them in “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest”. I undertook a cold case review of the incident in 1994 and re-checked the data with the Defence Radiological Protection Service, who confirmed to me that the original findings were correct. The “significantly higher” actually translates to the recorded levels being around 6.66 times higher than the expected level — which may be interesting to people familiar with the Book of Revelations in The Bible (where 666 is identified as being “the number of the Beast”, i.e. the devil). Other radiation surveys have been done since then, but mainly by TV companies and by well-meaning amateurs, and in any case, without knowing the exact source and type of the original radiation, and the radioactive half-life, we cannot be definitive on this point.
9. In some localized Rendlesham forest areas, where allegedly the crafts landed, there is almost no plant growth nowadays and some full size trees had to be removed from site in the 80´s due to radiation, is this true?
I am aware of this allegation, but have seen no definitive evidence to suggest that the tree felling was undertaken as a result of the radiation, or that residual radiation is currently inhibiting plant growth. An additional problem is that large parts of Rendlesham Forest were flattened in the so-called “Great Storm” of 1987, and the forest today is therefore very different to the forest as it was back in 1980.
10. According to military personnel like Larry Warren, Adrian Bustinza and Steve Roberts, on the night of December 28th, past midnight (same night as Colonel Halt´s incident) a pyramid shape craft, heavy yellow fog, multi colored flying saucers and other anomalies were observed at Rendlesham forest. These soldiers state that descending from light like tubes there were 3 humanoid figures which at one point seemed to communicate telepathically with Base Commandeer Colonel Gordon Williams, and other high command staff, including Halt. There were also personnel filming the scene and taking photos. What is your opinion on this matter? Was it a damaged alien craft that needed some electronics parts as these soldier’s recall hearing?
Larry Warren’s story was exposed last year as being fraudulent — partly based on the stories of other witnesses, but mostly fabricated. His publisher withdrew his book when the fraud was uncovered. Steve Roberts (real name J.D. Ingalls) also seems to have picked up parts of the story from other witnesses, and doesn’t seem to have been involved personally. Bustinza, frankly, seems confused by what he saw, and his story has varied over the years — possibly because he was too polite to call Warren a liar. But Bustinza does seem to have been genuinely involved, and his presence was confirmed by Halt and Burroughs, both of whom are reliable. However, none of the stories about Gordon Williams encountering humanoid figures are credible.
11. Mr. Bustinza, who has been recently contacted by some UK researches, doesn’t want to be involved on any matter related to the incident, but has openly stated that Colonel Williams ordered “Whatever you saw out there, I don’t want to personally know anything about it. That is between you and whoever is handling the case”. These orders seem to validate the contact; does it also indicate a cover up?
Adrian Bustinza was definitely involved, and Gordon Williams may well have said exactly what is reported. Even so, the quote only validates that something happened — which I don’t think anyone disputes. As for the question of a cover-up, it’s no secret that both the US government and the British government have consistently tried to downplay the extent of their interest in UFOs, and their involvement in the subject. However, in 1980, while the MoD still had its UFO project, the US government was claiming that it had no such program, and that UFO investigations had ended in 1969 when Project Blue Book was terminated. So the US government couldn’t be seen to be investigating UFOs without contradicting their public position on the issue. This, I believe, is why Gordon Williams wanted to distance himself from the incident. It’s a classic case of “plausible deniability”.
12. Some researchers, including you, have stated that certain critical material (Halt´s audio tape, non-fogged photos, film, radar records) and samples (soil and sap) related to both UFO incidents were confiscated by General Charles A. Gabriel, Commander-in-Chief of USAF Europe, who flew to England from Germany´s Ramstein air Base, headquarters of the USAF in Europe… is there any evidence backing up Gabriel´s visit to the base after the incident? Were the British aware of this action?
General Gabriel’s post-incident visit to the twin bases of Bentwaters and Woodbridge (and his removal of evidence) is referenced in a declassified MoD document dated 16 February 1981, which we published in “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest”. It was also confirmed to me personally by General Gordon Williams, with whom I discussed the case after his retirement from the USAF.
13. Two radar operators from Bentwaters have declared that they detected objects travelling at approximately 20 km / second, plus visuals of round glowing objects with portholes, roughly twice the size of a F-111 aircraft, the same week the above mentioned incidents took place. Nevertheless, no radar tapes nor other material has been declassified, all has rather mysteriously disappeared. Some high command staff have said that the radar was malfunctioning, and that is why there are no radar records (even though everybody knows there are 2 sets of radar, one always on), what is your opinion on this matter? Is there a cover up here?
I am aware of testimony from at least three radar operators (two in the USAF, one in the UK’s Royal Air Force), confirming that at some point during the encounter, a UFO was tracked briefly on military radar, directly over the base. However, as you say, we don’t have any raw data on this, partly because it seems that some radar tapes were confiscated very early in the investigation, by unknown parties somewhere in the government, military or intelligence community. Even I wasn’t able to identify the culprits when I looked at the radar issue as part of my cold case review into the incident. Additional problems were caused by three factors: firstly, some of the radar camera recorders (i.e. the cameras that film one of the two radar screens, ensuring that there’s a video record of the radar data) were switched off at the time of the incident; secondly, while others were switched on, the film proved to be faulty; and thirdly, the situation was confused because Halt’s original memo to the MoD contained incorrect dates.
14. Was there any OSI (Office of Special Investigations) personnel involved in any interrogations after the incidents, allegedly openly speaking about visitors from space and very advanced civilizations? Did they use some sort of truth serum and energetically, almost violently, forbid the witness, several airmen, to talk about the sightings?
I am aware that a number of OSI personnel were involved in some aspects of the investigation. This is what Charles Halt has said about this: “OSI operatives harshly interrogated five young airmen, some of them in shock at the time, who were key witnesses”. He added that “drugs such as sodium pentothal, often called a “truth serum” when used with some form of brainwashing or hypnosis, were administered during these interrogations, and the whole thing has had damaging, and lasting, effects on the men involved”. I do not wish to elaborate on this statement, but it is no secret that a number of the witnesses have spoken openly about this. Indeed, Jim Penniston has made a detailed statement about it, which we included in “Encounter in Rendlesham Forest”.
15. What is your interpretation on the quote by Margaret Thatcher “You must have the facts and you can’t tell the people” a famous sentence told to Georgina Bruni, British researcher specialized in the Rendlesham Forest UFOs, who wrote a very complete monograph on the case, once she asked Mrs. Thatcher about the incident?
Mrs. Thatcher frequently said “you must have the facts”. It simply meant that details were important to her, and that it was important to be well-briefed (on any subject), so that informed decisions could be made. “You can’t tell the people” is more difficult to explain. It may have meant that if people deeply believe something, nothing you can say to the contrary will ever dissuade them from their view. But it could mean (as some have suggested) that she was aware of some deep and terrible truth about the UFO phenomenon that the government felt could never be shared with the public. Georgina Bruni was present when Mrs. Thatcher said this, and I wasn’t, and as Bruni and Thatcher have both now died, we are unlikely to learn exactly what she meant, unless some new written record emerges. It is interesting to note that Georgina Bruni was the first person to acquire the declassified MoD file on the Rendlesham Forest incident, having successfully lobbied the UK government to declassify and release it.
16. And now finishing up, what is your opinion on the UFO incident that took place in March 1979 very close to Tenerife, Canary Islands, where huge light like bells were seen in the skies associated to triangular UFOs and other anomalous luminous phenomena? Are you familiar with this incident?
With apologies, I am not familiar with this incident. When I studied this subject for the MoD my remit was to investigate UFO sightings that occurred in the UK Air Defence Region. I had no authority to investigate sightings that took place in other countries.
17. And finally, in the field of Ufology, what are your most immediate future plans?
I wrote and presented a DVD called “Aliens at the Pentagon”, about the US government’s AATIP program. This is released on 9 October. My latest book is called “Blood Brothers”. It has been published as a Kindle eBook and will be published as a hard copy paperback on 15 November. It is a thriller about counter-terrorism and intelligence, and although it has nothing to do with the unexplained, UFO researchers may be interested in what it reveals about the inner workings of government, the military and the intelligence agencies. Finally, I am doing a wide range of media work to keep the subject in the public eye. I write regularly for many of the UK’s national newspapers, appear on TV shows such as “Ancient Aliens”, and I am in discussion with various TV networks and production companies who want me to present my own series about UFOs and related subjects.
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